Turning right “most dangerous manoeuvre” for cyclists, resulting in over 10,000 collisions in ten years, new study finds

If I've understood, I think it's that the road bends to the right and there's a "left" turn onto another road which is geometrically a straight line. 

Drivers "turning left" see the cyclist on the left of the lane; assume the cyclist is also turning; plough into the cyclist who was not turning but carrying on along the original road.

I've nearly come a cropper on a few like this, and tend to try and hang back or speed up so I clear the junction in splendid isolation. 

Brauchsel wrote:

If I've understood, I think it's that the road bends to the right and there's a "left" turn onto another road which is geometrically a straight line. 

And don't forget that the motorists never seem to think that they ought to indicate left, in that circumstance.

brooksby wrote:

Brauchsel wrote:

If I've understood, I think it's that the road bends to the right and there's a "left" turn onto another road which is geometrically a straight line. 

And don't forget that the motorists never seem to think that they ought to indicate left, in that circumstance.

Indeed, when IK was crossing such a road and the taxi driver came barelling through "what are you doing getting in the way?" "can't you finid your indicators? Shall I help you?" "why would I indicate for going straight on?"

(it's your job to get out of the way of my 2 tonne metal box, EVEN when I don't give you any hint about where I am going.)

Right, so if the motorway bends to the left, you can move out a lane or two without indicating right? because if you you don't turn the wheel it isn't a manouvre and doesn't require a signal?

Also in Victoria down under...quite common to turn right at traffic lights on 2lane each way roads where crossing traffic moving at 60km/hr isn't easy and essential if turning right across tram tracks. Drivers seem pretty aware that it is absolutely legal and rarely get any hassle ( well no more than usually get)...from Vicroads advice for cyclists:
"Use a hook turn to turn right. Riders can do a hook turn (a right turn from the left side of the road) at any intersection unless a sign bans it. This is often a safer way to turn right."

'quite common to turn right at traffic lights on 2lane each way roads where crossing traffic moving at 60km/hr isn't easy and essential if turning right across tram tracks'.. I couldn't make any sense reading this; is English your first language?

Works if you don't prioritise motorized traffic.

marmotte27 wrote:

Works if you don't prioritise motorized traffic.

That's why it wouldn't work over here.

Same here in Japan at any crossroads or traffic lights. Right turns at T/ side junctions too, when exiting or entering we're supposed to stop on the left, check then cross / turn or vice versa. Bikes / mopeds are legally supposed to be within 1 meter of the left side of the road and no passing any vehicle in motion or queueing on the right. I've been pulled over for using a filter lane.

We've had them a bit, eg. Leith Walk / Mcdonald Road. They were combined with advanced release (early green) for cyclists FWIW.

https://leithcentralcc.co.uk/2017/10/13/2-stage-right-turns-on-leith-wal...

They've been replaced now because of the cycle paths. Now, at bigger junctions like this, cyclists on the cycle paths get held back by their own lights to prevent left hooks I assume. Then (IIRC) have their own phase for any direction. (Not 100% sure of the last part. What I am certain of - by comparing the arrangements on Leith to other new cycle facilities getting built here - is you never want to give that job to a tram company).

The junction of Glasgow Road and Hawkhead Road in Paisley was up for consultation to make safer for pedestrians and cyclists due to Barshaw Park on the corner. It would have totally restructured the junction with priority to vulnerable road users with cyclists going ahead to turn right. Approach and exiting out of conflict. All these things we dream of. There has been a real kickback regarding it even with there being numerous collisions on it with one householders garden wall regularly used as target practice. 

Just found "here's how you'll eventually end up doing it (if you ever get that far)":

How a standard left turn works in NL (left there is the equivalent of right in the UK).  With smart light phases this can be very convenient.

A video (from 2010!) comparing the UK, Danish / German and Dutch junction designs.  This explains how the Dutch examples are made safer that other designs even if a "two-stage turn" arrangement is used.  This is because a) there's a protected area off the motor vehicle carriageway where cyclists wait to cross and b) motor vehicles are held some distance back behind where the cyclists wait.

There are also other solutions offering safety AND convenience where cyclists need to cross traffic-light controlled junctions (e.g. simultaneous green / all ways green - or for large junctions no traffic lights at all!)

chrisonatrike wrote:

Just found "here's how you'll eventually end up doing it (if you ever get that far)":

How a standard left turn works in NL (left there is the equivalent of right in the UK).  With smart light phases this can be very convenient.

A video (from 2010!) comparing the UK, Danish / German and Dutch junction designs.  This explains how the Dutch examples are made safer that other designs even if a "two-stage turn" arrangement is used.  This is because a) there's a protected area off the motor vehicle carriageway where cyclists wait to cross and b) motor vehicles are held some distance back behind where the cyclists wait.

There are also other solutions offering safety AND convenience where cyclists need to cross traffic-light controlled junctions (e.g. simultaneous green / all ways green - or for large junctions no traffic lights at all!)

Looks to be pretty much the same as in Copenhagen.

hawkinspeter wrote:

Looks to be pretty much the same as in Copenhagen.

Same-same but not quite equal; detail is important here.  Difference boils down to "cycle paths like cycle lanes on the roadway" design (Denmark, UK) and a genuine "cycle paths as integral part of design" (NL) one.

In the Danish version I'm thinking of (and in Leith) the cycle path just gives up before the junction, to be replaced with paint.  (Probably Copenhagen now has a mix of designs - not been yet - but the style I'm aware of from there is more like the UK version.)

In the Dutch design the cycle paths continue - completely separate from traffic - round the corners.  That means that if you want to turn left, after you cross the carriageway you're back off it again, in "protected space".  The "protection" is the "rounded corner bits" (technical term!) which just emerge naturally from the Dutch design.

Article comparing these here.

I've pinched David Hembrow's diagram and one from BicycleDutch (Mr. Hembrow characteristically has a different idea about better traffic light designs.)

Because in the UK we're at a "cyclists are a threat to pedestrians!" stage a possible complaint about the Dutch version is it doesn't have a marked pedestrian crossing which cyclists cross and would be expected to give way to pedestrians at.  Pedestrians just cross the cycle path informally.  In the other design the cycle paths usually stop before the crossing, like motor traffic.

In UK places with this kind of design I think we're usually just painting a mini-crossing on the cycle path to get round this, with tactiles and extra "fuss" not apparent in most Dutch designs.

The design with the red highlights... that's on London Road in Glasgow outside the Velodrome.
The wait zones are pretty small - you have to have your front wheel right on the kerb edge to let other bikes pass behind.
Works OK... except ... wait times are horrendous. 1.5 to 3 light rotations before the cycle lanes lights change to green - and then you only have enough time to cross one leg. You would be sat there for a good 6 - 10 mins if you had to cross, turn then cross again.

Oldfatgit wrote:

wait times are horrendous. 1.5 to 3 light rotations before the cycle lanes lights change to green - and then you only have enough time to cross one leg. You would be sat there for a good 6 - 10 mins if you had to cross, turn then cross again.

That's a stroad!  Another "it's a street, 'cos houses and shops.  Oh, but actually it's a distributor road.  No, it's an arterial (A1) as it's carrying folks in and out of Edinburgh!"

I was sat there a couple of evenings back - didn't notice anything like that?  I wasn't paying close attention to cycling "facilities" though - I did notice it was a long wait.  Jock's Lodge junction has something like half the Danish design?  I doubt I'd be tempted to stop "in the middle of nowhere" on the crossings of the side roads to make a right turn.  You can at least see a traffic light though...

I've also been "enjoying" pedantically following the cycle lights on Leith Walk (having moved to one side to allow the delivery cyclists through) although at some point I got bored and followed them.

It is not the worst thing in the world... but it certainly doesn't feel like being a first-class citizen.  Especially when you're held while traffic goes ahead (because it could left-hook you).

As per usual - we've copied a better design up to the point at which it would impinge on motorised users.  Or possibly merely look "unfair" - for example with an all-ways green phase you could have a lot of cyclists through the junction in in all directions in a tiny slice of time.

Hopefully "slow progress" though - after all still far more cars than cycles and you won't get any more cyclists without good places to cycle.

I don't use a mirror but a radar and its a similar process for me.  I'm able to monitor the road behind whilst keeping my eyes forward to set my self up for a gap before a quick shoulder check before pulling into it.

I like to know if they are moving out to pass me, so a mirror check is good as well.
Bm45 as well. Which is fine and no vibration.

I had a mirror in flat bars but in drop bars no decent options. If attached in drop bars ends it is too far.

cyclisto wrote:

I had a mirror in flat bars but in drop bars no decent options. If attached in drop bars ends it is too far.

I found many drop-bar-end mirrors insufficiently adjustable to be able to either get them high enough in the bar ends so they don't just give you a view of the road surface; or to get in a position where my arm didn't block the view of them in one or more bar-grip arm positions. Spintech were the worst for this - good mirrors only if your bars are well tipped forward and you have skinny forearms. 

Those Briskmores I mentioned are very mavouverable, both when the bar-end plug is tightened and in the ways you can insert that plug into the bars before you tighten them. They're far more manouverable than any other bar-end mirrors I've tried.

Ride On wrote:

I have previously made the mistake of sitting on the white line waiting to turn right, moving traffic on both sides is not a place you want to be. If I have to hold up a queue of traffic that's what I do and sit in primary until I can turn. My slightly paranoid fear is a motorcyclist filtering just as I turn... so I ALWAYS LOOK.

I've noticed that the motorists seem happy to pass you much closer on your left, if you are waiting at the white line to turn right...

brooksby wrote:

I've noticed that the motorists seem happy to pass you much closer on your left, if you are waiting at the white line to turn right...

because the driver is closer to you and better able to judge exactly where they can drive without actually making contact.

wycombewheeler wrote:

brooksby wrote:

I've noticed that the motorists seem happy to pass you much closer on your left, if you are waiting at the white line to turn right...

because the driver is closer to you and think that they are better able to judge exactly where they can drive without actually making contact.

Fixed  It's still pretty scary, TBH, as they also don't seem to feel the need to slow down either.

And from being behind drivers going down roads with parked cars it's blindingly obvious they have no idea about the width of their vehicles so regularly end up a long way over into the other carriageway (particularly drivers of SUVs and the like), which is ironic given that many of them are happy to give passing a cyclist with inches to spare a go.