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Dear Council,

I want the road to go back to 30 because I wanna go fast!

Thanks, a driver with no concern for public safety. 

Clearly there's the usual lack of spines or just people looking to their future careers here.  (You could say of Mark Drakeford knew he wasn't going to have to continue to fight for his position of course).

Sounds like the usual politics of "we're listening - honest!" when some of the public start yelling:

BBC wrote:

Welsh Labour leadership candidate Vaughan Gething has previously said he wants the public to have a say in the review, via their local councils.

Both candidates have said they would stick with the policy and review its implementation.

Hopefully it's a distraction tactic and not a reverse - for a measure which apparently did have approval politically:

Quote:

A Welsh government spokesperson previously said: "This review, as we set out in October, is looking at how the new default 20mph speed limit has been implemented across Wales. It is not a review into the policy itself which has been overwhelmingly supported by Senedd members from three parties."

Of course the other parties are now using this as a stick.  This is also a universal tactic when it comes to positive active travel policies (although maybe not the Greens?).  Although you can normally guess which party has the least positive things to say:

Natasha Asghar, of the Welsh Conservatives wrote:

The Welsh people don't want a review of 20mph, they want it reversed.

There are cases where the new limit has been badly implemented, and where driver confusion is caused by poor signage or other similar cases of poor infrastructure, those measures must be rectified in order to make it easier to both a) understand and follow and b) enforce.

There are also cases rurally where you have multiple major speed limit changes on stretches of roads which probably should have been reviewed on a case-by-case basis before implementation.

You should see the dog's arse made of the random implementation in england, many people drive at 20mph (or 40mph) around Caer totally unaware of when the limits change, or why.

The problem we have now is that none of the previous 20mph zones which had been created over the last decade legally exist anymore.

All signs are being taken down and they are legally returning to default.

If the 20mph policy is overturned then all those streets which were 20mph before the default 20mph limit will automatically revert to 30mph.

Each 20mph zone will then have to individually reinstated. Will there be the time or money for that?

In my area almost all the residential roads and roads past schools etc were already 20mph before the law change. We risk losing all that because of Drakeford's bungling.

Is it true that the previous 20mph zones legally no longer exist? I would have thought the Traffic Orders implemented to create them are still valid - but the signage is being removed as (with the new default) the signs are redundant and potentially confusing. But if the default was changed, the Traffic Orders would still be in effect, and it will only require a restoration of the signage (not trivial, but does not require any new legislation or Traffic Orders). 

Alternatively, ff the Traffic Orders were revoked en masse as part the legislation to amend the default, then would it not be equally possible to restore them en masse as part of whatever legislation changes the default back?

(Hopefully this is all academic and they won't overturn the whole policy)

I'm not an expert on local authority legal stuff by any means but in the run up to the 20mph change that's what I was told by a local councillor.

He might well have been wrong but I assumed he knew more about it than me!

From what I understand if a traffic order is in place then a road is not a 'restricted road' and therefore the 20mph default limit wouldn't apply and signage would be required. As all the signage has been removed I assume the traffic orders have been rescinded.

Rich_cb wrote:

...n my area almost all the residential roads and roads past schools etc were already 20mph before the law change. We risk losing all that because of Drakeford's bungling.

if the authorities roll over because the impatient drivers throw their toys out of their overpowered prams

The policy of 20mph on residential streets etc was widely supported both by the public and all the major Welsh political parties.

Changing the default limit has now made 20mph limits a wedge issue and we risk going backwards.

Far better to have continued to expand the old policy IMO.

Hmm... I defer to your local knowledge of scale of cock-up (I've no doubt that for any large change councils will cock things up to some degree).

However to me this argument still smacks of "we can't ask for what we want - that will rouse the driving bear and we'll lose everything".  So we just ask for half of less and hope we'll gradually, eventually drift towards the change we want that way.  In his usual style David Hembrow has covered this well [1] [2] [3] (and also the kind of "pragmatism" that we should aim for).

I think this just hits a limit at some point - if change is just too slow it starts being undone (by development, damage, other priorities) as fast as it is created.  Also eventually the activists concerned about this all die!

For speed limits the "slowly slowly" method also ends up creating exactly the situation that is being complained about e.g. lots of speed changes everywhere, lots of signs, lots of possibility for confusion.

With 20mph the 'slowly, slowly' approach had got us to a very good position.

20mph limits were widespread and covered most residential streets.

The approach was working and I think if it wasn't broken we probably shouldn't have tried to fix it!

Rich_cb wrote:

With 20mph the 'slowly, slowly' approach had got us to a very good position. 20mph limits were widespread and covered most residential streets. The approach was working and I think if it wasn't broken we probably shouldn't have tried to fix it!

Well - it's also "worked" in Edinburgh (with the caveat that as we know "20's 25 - or perhaps 30") thus far.  We do have a further consultation on expanding the "islands" of 20mph which has gone through.  However good luck in Scotland more generally - and as we saw in the rejection of the bill to change the default limit there are a few at the top who are quite certain that this is already far too far.

It seems we may ("in due course" - despite the existence of a 2025 target...) get some further shift but again this will be driven from the national level, not here and there.

Quote:

If the 20mph policy is overturned then all those streets which were 20mph before the default 20mph limit will automatically revert to 30mph.

If ... and given the current apparent "on the side of the driver" climate leading up to elections there is nothing to say that parties won't start reversing things regardless.  If that happens, it won't matter.

BTW in general I don't see evidence that e.g. bikelash or kicking against active travel (15 minute / 20 min cities anyone) has been provoked by "success" from the lobby (certainly not the "cycle lobby" - where is that?).  I think it's more about transforming complaints around costs and issues with driving (almost entirely due to the numbers driving) into an "issue".  Handily one with some "others" - out groups - to blame (cyclists, climate campaigners, road safety advocates etc).  Cyclists in particular will get the "they're getting benefits and they don't even pay road tax" unfairness complaints.

Achieving the positive changes to our transport systems that other places have managed is a balance I'd agree.  For some issues while I'd like more I suspect only slow, continual slogging and gradual drift (cycle infra is small and cheap so can "sneak in") can move things forward.  At some point though you have to go mainstream (or some "tipping point" is reached).

I hope Wales shows that if you ride out the shouting within a short time its just "how it is".  I think the example of Seville shows this also*.

* Albeit one that some might see as "extremist" e.g. the cycle lane builders confessed to deliberately making it hard to undo the changes!  No such confessions from the motor lobby and their politicians AFAIK though...

The main part of the problem is that the limits were clearly stated in Labour's manifesto, the public voted, et voila! Now all those that wang on about the will of the people in regards to brexit have shit themselves are crying their eyes out for change, citing stuff like no one reads the manifesto while simoutaneously claiming that people knew the most minute details of a yes/no referendum. That we shouldn't denigrate leave voters for being stupid as they knew that they were voting for. Right whingers and irony, who'd've thunk it?

Before the 20mph implementation Lee Waters stated there would be a review after it had been up and running for 6 months, so this was entirely expected by those who paid attention to the plans from the early consultation days.

Take it from me, nothing much will change post review, just a very few minor tweaks maybe where some local authorities made some errors and erred on the side of caution when it was inappropriate.

The actual on the ground experience has been very positive so far and will only get better.

There will always be hard core petrol heads who think cars are the most important things in the world and should get priority over everything and everybody, but as the urban environment evolves and improves for the benefit of the most vulnerable members of society, the angry voices of such people will be drowned out by childrens laughter and the whirring of bicycle wheels.

20mph in Wales is here to stay, there's no going back now.

yupiteru wrote:

Take it from me, nothing much will change post review, just a very few minor tweaks maybe where some local authorities made some errors and erred on the side of caution when it was inappropriate.

Hope so!

yupiteru wrote:

The actual on the ground experience has been very positive so far and will only get better.

I do believe this (with some doubts about the few loud voices being selectively amplified or the powers that be being bought by lobbying) but:

yupiteru wrote:

...the most vulnerable members of society, the angry voices of such people will be drowned out by childrens laughter and the whirring of bicycle wheels.

At 20mph and normal UK traffic volumes - not quite yet!  You'll still be in a world of mass driving and drivers first.  Albeit it will be a quieter and safer one.  For the noises of people rather than motor vehicles an additional transformation - or several - is needed.

I drove to Aberwristwatch the other week through rural Wales and the only issue I had with the 20mph speed limits was the difference in speed from the beforehand - going from 50mph to 20mph seemed really REALLY slow - but I would think I would get used to that over time.

Battery, solar or wind up ?

Hirsute wrote:

Battery, solar or wind up ?

that part of Wales - wind!

The Larger Cyclist wrote:

I drove to Aberwristwatch the other week through rural Wales and the only issue I had with the 20mph speed limits was the difference in speed from the beforehand - going from 50mph to 20mph seemed really REALLY slow - but I would think I would get used to that over time.

I can see that. But it's not really that different than going from a motorway at 70mph to a 40mph road.

Not really. When you come off a motorway you are on a slip road approaching a junction. Your are expected to slow down and the infrastructure is designed to allow you to safely do so. Where Motorway regulations end without junctions rarely do you find a significant speed limit drop.

However in rural areas it is quite common to go from NSL to 30 or 40 (and now 20 in Wales) with no more warning than a pair of gate signs and some rumble strips covering no more than 20 metres distance, and there aren't always the /// - // - / signs before hand as a warning ahead of the limit change. Have that after a bend with poor visibility it's asking for trouble, despite the fact that safe driving practice is to only travel at the speed where you can see your stopping place if you needed to perform an emergency brake (this is a recommendation most drives ignore for the sake of trying to keep to the speed limit despite it not really being safe).

I'm up for practical but I think you've identified the point of divergence.

Some people who drive: we can't have 20mph limits as they aren't practical (or rather - "I'm in favour but not here" where "here" turns out to be "anywhere I drive").  They may appear without warning when we're driving at 60 (because National (Minimum) Speed Limits) round a sharp bend / not paying attention to the road ahead / haven't had an eye test in decades.

I'd say: problems with specific instances of limits?  Don't simply reverse the situation.  This is exactly why there is (as there was before) some local flexibility.

Is there genuinely insufficient warning of a change which would allow you to adapt?  Perhaps there is some unusual stretch road with very frequent changes in a short space?  We have road experts, so no doubt they can give us metrics for allowing appropriate leeway for "humans" and judge potential solutions.  Obviously they'll need suitable guidance on the "new regime" - because for many "can you fit more vehicles down that?" has been the norm.

I guess solutions other than "give up" might involve e.g. lowering speed on short NSL sections or possibly flattening out e.g. 40 - 20 - 40 to 30 all the way.

Perhaps even more paint and some signs to warn people?  Not usually a fan of these but this might be a politically pragmatic way forward?  Probably won't quiet the shouty but it might steady those who are wobbling on this one.  It's likely cheaper than having to say "OK, we'll reverse this, no limits" if there is a lot of public pressure - because we'll be back to paying for extra road damage and casualties and people "having to drive".  It's normally cheaper than physically fixing the roads.

And if our problem is "people driving at 50+ round blind bends" perhaps the issue isn't really to do with speed limits, either way...

The people were already able to take part in the 2 year consultation period, this is why not all 30mph roads are 20mph, contrary to the lies from the leader of the conservative and unionist party in Cymru. They then had a vote which left Labour in power and obliged to carry out their promises in the manifesto.

1) Clearly enough people voted to carry it through, that's democracy for you.

1a) If you missed the legal consultation period, tough titties! Stop whinging, move on, no one is interested, suck it up, etc...

2) The majority of negativity is not aimed at 20mph limits, it's aimed at devolution and any self respecting party of Cymru should protect the devolution and be pushing for independence.

3) With all due respect, if you don't have a vote in Cymru, feel free to have a little opinion, but it's not really any of your business.

4) If you think it's cool to take the piss out of Welsh place names (general comment), take a long hard look at how pathetic you are.

The weird thing is that they said sorry though. No self respecting BMW driver would apologise for doing their duty as a beamer driver and driving like an utter twat. Something doesn't add up. 

Moving up into top spot in the past few weeks, The Jag...